While confidence is a natural state of being for a lot of people, it is something that you can learn even if it doesn’t come easily to you. Elle Russ, writer and author of Confidence as Fu*k, joins me to talk about what led her to pursue confidence as a career.
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There are so many different ways to be confident. And for so many confident people, they’re at the top of their game. This doesn’t mean, however, that there aren’t pitfalls to having innate confidence and Elle explains what some of these are. We also talk about how you can be confident in one area of your life, such as your career, but not others, such as parenthood.
Elle shares about her disability and the shame that she felt when she initially received her lifelong diagnosis. It wasn’t until she started opening up and talking about her disability that her confidence started to grow back. She quickly found out that by taking the power of her shame away that she was able to live a happier and healthier life, exploring the paths she thought she’d never see.
Elle also explains some of the things confident people don’t do. From competing to comparing, confident people don’t care what other people are doing, they focus on themselves and their goals. She shares what you absolutely need to let go of in order to step into your own confidence.
Like everyone, Elle has had her share of doubters, downers, and naysayers in her life. While initially, their words of discouragement hurt, she’s learned how to handle these people.
Elle’s final piece of advice is about how to make your dreams a reality. Less thinking of the “how” to make it happen, as that’s where you’ll get stuck and stagnate, and more trying to make your dreams happen.
What has this conversation about confidence brought up for you? Let me hear your thoughts in the comments below. If you have questions, email team@drannacabeca.com
In This Episode:
- What the pitfalls of being a confident person are
- How you can be confident in one area of your life but not others
- Why you need to deal with your shame in order to move forward with your life
- How opening up about something you’re ashamed about can help you be more confident
- What confident people don’t do
- What you need to let go of in order to move forward in confidence
- How you can handle the downers and naysayers in your life
- What happens when you live in the “how” of a dream
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Quotes:
“Confident people are usually the most authentic, they’re the most revered, the most employed, they’re usually the most successful and there’s a reason for that: Because they do speak up and stand by that tenant of ‘it never hurts to ask.’ They take chances and risks.” (5:31)
“You never know what’s going to throw you into your purpose or some avenue that’s going to lead you somewhere you never thought you would go.” (33:16)
“To me, it’s not about proving them wrong. It’s about proving yourself awesome.” (47:40)
Links
Find Elle Russ on Facebook | Instagram | Twitter
Transcript
Elle:
I never thought when I suffered for six years with two bouts of hypothyroidism, bawling my eyes out every morning, barely being able to get out of bed and even think, I never thought that that would become a success story and help people at that moment, and so the biggest gifts in life, they come wrapped in ... They do. They do, and so if you're out there and you're dealing with some bad stuff, I'm telling you there's some golden nuggets in there, you may not find out about them until later but you keep persevering.
Dr. Anna:
Welcome to Couch Talk. As a mom, I've had challenges with mommy confidence. When I moved here from Emery as a physician in Southeast Georgia, I was not the stay at home mom, I was not there on time to pick up my kids in the afternoon. I was working 80 hours a week in obstetrics, and gynecology and sometimes not back for one, two, three days on call, and in my practice as a solo gynecologist and obstetrician. So, I had struggled with mommy confidence, and have done a lot of work to really regain that, and I feel just even recently driving back from Washington D.C. with three of my daughters in the car, just like loving the time I'm spending with them, and what beautiful young ladies, and women they've become. And relishing in the mommy I've become to them, as imperfect as I've been and all.
Dr. Anna:
When I have this opportunity to interview Elle Russ, who is a friend of mine and in this space, I've interviewed here before on paleo thyroid, and she's a fabulous guest and such an energetic speaker and just a wise woman. She came out with this book called, Confident as Fu*k. Confident as ... Yes, that's right. And her book is full of pearls and wisdom and scenarios, stories and anecdotes that each of us probably have experienced to some degree or several of them down our people, negative energies around us, negative relationships, and our own self-limiting defeating thoughts, talks, and behaviors. I know I have. I've dealt with it what does confidence look like today for each and every one of us?
Dr. Anna:
As confident as you may be listening, as I may be speaking, where can I up-level my confidence in the beautiful dignified, and regal way that I know I can? So, sharing this Couch Talk with you and this episode with my dear friend Elle Russ on her book, Confident as ... Here we go. So, excited to be with you again Elle. I am just thrilled to have you here and excited about your new book. Welcome.
Elle:
Thank you so much for having me again, and I love our conversations and look forward to seeing you in person again at Paleo f(x), so that'll be fun. Although, this time we passed in a night thought when we were there last time. This time we're going to sit down at that VIP dinner and hang out.
Dr. Anna:
Absolutely. I'm looking forward to it. It's such a great event, and it's a great time, a great time to connect. So, for our listeners, Paleo f(x) is held again in Austin this year in the end of April, 23rd or something like that, 25th, sixth, seventh but I encourage all our listeners to join us. It is an incredible event and of course, it's in Austin, which there is not a better city. I just really love Austin. But now Elle, you've been up to a lot, right? I had you on my podcast and for our listeners, Elle and I have chatted before. We are like minds, like spirit, I just love her passion, her energy, her enthusiasm and we were talking Keto and Thyroid and really just nailing it.
Dr. Anna:
One of the best and most popular podcast that I've had, so I want to thank you for that. And when I saw that shift gears in writing this book, I was like, "Of course, this is the book you were meant to write." And so, Elle's book is called Confident as Fu*k. This is her new book. We'll just refer to it as Confident as F, and it is just perfect, so I really want you to share a little bit about your story. And especially, something that so many of us deal with, a shame story that inspired you to be who you are.
Elle:
There's lots of different reasons why I wrote this book but one is that, throughout my life ... I mean, anyone listening to me right now, can say, "Oh [inaudible 00:04:40]." You can be confident and on stage with 50,000 people and get off and not be confident at all. You can be the most insecure person in the world with low self-esteem, low self-worth. So, performance confidence is not what I'm talking about, and I'm not trying to encourage anyone in this book. In fact, some of the most confident people in the world are the quietest people in the room. In fact, sometimes the loudest people in the room are the most insecure. So, I don't want anyone to misinterpret that. I'm trying to promote confidence in the way that you and I might have and in terms of podcasting, or performance, or even public speaking. Even if you're a stay at home mom, you're going to need confidence.
Elle:
You might need to speak up to some total be parents of a child at the PTA meeting or whatnot. It doesn't matter. Everywhere in your life, from the bedroom to the boardroom, you're going to need confidence. And what I mean by Confident as F is all-encompassing. That's inside and out. And it's so important because confident people are usually the most authentic. They are the most revered, they're the most employed, they're usually the most successful. And there's a reason for that because they do speak up, and they stand by that tendon of, "Hey, never hurts to ask." And they take chances and risks, you know what I mean?
Elle:
But there's also pitfalls to confidence too. And I had those as well. So, while I'm a very confident person and always have been, the pitfalls of confident people, confident people are often quite alpha and I mean that in a very positive way. When I talk about alpha, I don't mean, an 80s movie with a guy smashing a beer can on his forehead, that's just machismo and false confidence. But it's important because the pitfalls are very clear, confident people really have issues with vulnerability, and being accessible to others. So, when you're highly confident, we don't want to show any weakness or vulnerability. And the way that plays out is we're unattainable. People can't really get to know us.
Elle:
We can get to know you, but we've got this wall around us. We also have issues with diplomacy, like thinking before we speak, because we're very highly confident and opinionated, and we're just ready to pounce on our opinion. And this is where less confident people or the people that would come to such a person like me for confidence where we can learn from them, they are often more able to receive from others help where we're like, "No, I got it. I'll do it." And they also really do think before they speak. And even though they might have issues speaking up, they have a level of diplomacy that we all can learn from.
Elle:
And there's some more pitfalls here too. So, even if you're listening to this, and you consider yourself highly confident, this book is also for you so that you can refine those areas. And I guarantee because so many people I know are highly confident that have read it, and they're like, "You know what? I thought I had cleaned up some stuff in my life, but as I read this, I'm realizing that eh, there needs to be some fine-tuning." And then if you're at ground zero, and you're so shy that you can't even speak to someone, and that's your level of confidence. I've seen people do 180s, and this book is for you too.
Elle:
So, this is about ditching bad vibes and cultivating confidence inside and out to create your dreams. Achieve your goals, live a happier life. Confident people are usually happier, they're usually more successful, and they're kind. So, when we think of confidence, a lot of people who aren't outwardly confident get a little offended, and defensive because they're not necessarily like boisterous or outgoing or talkative. And so, they get offended thinking that that's what confidence means. And like I said, my best friend from high school is the guy you'd see in the corner at a party standing by himself.
Elle:
And other people might be like, "Oh, that poor guy is all alone in the corner." Not a poor guy at all. He's comfortable in himself, he's observing everything. He's just enjoying himself with or without people. Completely confident, not worried about what people are thinking of him. So, this is just a really big important topic. And when I say Confident as F again, inside, outside self-esteem, confidence so that you can move forward and get what you want in life. There's a lot of people who are confident in their abilities about something, but they're not confident. So, I heard someone once say, "Gosh, you know what? I really know my stuff."
Elle:
Like this is a Ph.D. talking. And she said, "I really, really know my stuff. It's just I'm not confident." No one's going to come to your door and ask to buy your paintings. If you're an artist, you have to get out there and sell yourself. Especially, if you do have an idea you want to present the world. And it doesn't even matter if you have a big idea or you want to be a corporate head honcho or a public speaker, you still have to speak up in order to get what you want out of people in life.
Elle:
And we've all had moments where we've walked away from conversations, and be like, "Damn, and I should've spoken up. I should've said something." And those are the regrets we have. And I don't want people to have those regrets. And I can tell you right now because I am confident as F, that I live in that world and honestly, it's a really great world to live in. I feel so good because I always speak up. And on that note, we're not talking about, you always have to have an editing button. If I'm at your grandmother's Thanksgiving [inaudible 00:09:36] not tell her the truth. Yes. Sometimes lying is appropriate. So, this is not about going out there and being some brash person who's pontificating confidence about self-examination and cultivating it from within.
Dr. Anna:
Hmm. I love that. And it's also cultivating confidence in other areas of our life. Like sometimes we're so confident in one area but not in other areas like confident as a physician. But confidence as a mother was shaken for a while. Right? And you got teenagers. What the heck? So gaining that confidence, and to me, it's tied right into courage and also self-realization. Knowing our skills and knowing our yes from our maybe and our no.
Elle:
Totally. And I'm glad you brought that up because one of the examples in my book is a guy named John who is an anesthesiologist, high level of confidence, sticking needles into people's spines, putting them out for surgery, having to bring them back to life. He has zero lack of confidence in this area. And he also is a spearfishermen in his spare time as a hobby. It is an incredibly rigorous sport. It's dangerous. You're out in the middle of the ocean with sharks. You're spearfishing 150-pound creature, and it took an hour to wrangle that thing to the surface. Highly confident. So, people might see this guy and go, "Wow, what a confident guy." Look again because he can't even have a conversation with his neighbor about something really, really small. And that translates to his relationships where he can't speak up.
Elle:
Okay. So, you can be confident in your abilities about a thing. And again, this is about getting into all the areas of your life. And the biggest area in my life where it suffered was due to what you mentioned, which is a shame. And I have an entire chapter on this called hame disables confidence. Last year at Paleo f(x), I did a speech called the shame of disability, and the disability of shame. So, something most people don't know about me because I've been talking about thyroid forever for the past few years. And it just wasn't right to combine a bunch of different topics until I was ready to come out with this book.
Elle:
But so when I was 22 I was permanently disabled. I have a hand injury from repetitive strain activity using the computer. I was rated at a 40% disability by the state of California. I still have it. I'm not in chronic pain anymore because I don't use my hands eight hours repetitively, but I was 22 making six figures. I had a corner office, I had a closet full of Armani suits, and my next promotion was to be making a quarter of a million dollars a year. I was managing 100 guys throughout the state of California working for fortune 500 companies. I was on fire, Anna. And I at that time was like, "Oh, I am so going to be retired by the time I'm 35 I'm going to have portions in the driveway and a couple of homes. My plan is working."
Elle:
And as they say, when you make plans, God laughs, and that was the case for me because what happened was is one day my arms literally stopped working. I could not hold a fork in my mouth. I couldn't hold a cup in my hand. I couldn't wipe myself without pain. My arms went numb every single night. I still cannot sleep on my sides, which was something I had to train myself over many years to do. I was in chronic pain 24/7. And after a year of this, and intense physical therapy, and realizing multiple hand surgeons saying, "Hey look, here's the deal. You're going to have this for life. It'll get better if you rest your arms, but you're never going to be able to go back into some job that has you working eight hours a day repetitively."
Elle:
Now, anyone listening to this, you've probably adjusted your hands 50 times already. Secondly, this is a hand based world. I challenge anyone to give me an idea of any job where you don't have to use your hands repetitively eight hours a day. I can't work at a Starbucks. I can't be a waiter. I can't work a cash register. I can't work at the grocery store and be a checkout person. If you're in a wheelchair and you have the use of your arms, you have way more job opportunities than anybody with a hand disability. And so, at that moment, I'm 22, I'm permanently disabled now, this amazing job in my financial future, I'm crushed. And I'm sitting in my apartment in San Francisco, I mean, I was just so devastated. You can only imagine. And my arms were dead. I couldn't even talk with them. Like I'm talking with my arms now.
Elle:
And I had my first horrible thought of intense shame, which was, I sat there and I thought, "Who's ever going to want me? Who is ever going to want me? My arms are dead. I can't take care of the kids. I can't be a wife, and cleanup, and get kids ready for school in the morning and button shirts and all of the things that I know that it takes. You know, you're a mother. It's nonstop handwork. I thought at that point unless I won the lottery, there was no way because I'd have to have like a staff of people who could help me. I can't even hold a baby in my arms for a certain amount of time before I have to put [inaudible 00:14:28] very young sitting there at 22 going, "Who's going to want me?"
Elle:
And that is such a sense of worthlessness. And it was all fun. I even thought, "Gosh, you know what though? I don't want to be a hypocrite. I don't know that I would choose a guy who had dead arms at the age of 22, why would I choose that? Why would I want to choose someone who was able-bodied?" So, immediately when you're disabled, and this goes for anyone, I don't care if you've gotten to a car accident and lost your arm, or your Bethany Hamilton and it was bitten off by a shark, doesn't matter." There's an immediate sense of shame and embarrassment, fear for your financial future, and fear that no one's going to want you.
Elle:
And so, it was so depressing, and I spent so many years with this shame. Now, lots of people were like, "It's not your fault. No one will care." And they were trying to be helpful. But that was really discounting my shame and saying that I was ridiculous for feeling this way. So, as an alpha female who was so confident, I was so embarrassed and mortified to say that I was disabled. To admit that I received longterm disability payments from my company. Anything that had that word in it just seemed like I was defective. And then when you have something you can't see, nobody understands it.
Elle:
So, people are much more compassionate when you're missing an arm or you're in a wheelchair, but when you have rheumatoid arthritis, or a hand injury, or something that you can't see, people question it. People are always getting new ideas. And so, after time I started to be like, "You know what? This is just giving me PTSD. Like talking about this whole experience, it's very sensational." Everyone's like, "Oh, that's awesome. You won the insurance lottery. Like that's really cool." Well, I won the insurance lottery for $45,000 a year in California, which is, like a preschool teacher. No offense, preschool teachers, but assuming that, "Oh my God, I'd be on my own for life."
Elle:
I was like, "How am I going to move forward in life without my hands to make more money so that I can get ahead?" And then that moment I was like, "I have my voice, I have my voice. So, I went on a 20-year journey to use my voice. I did a voiceover demo. I went back and did sketch comedy training in Chicago. I've been on TV and film, and now I'm a writer something I never would have thought what happened. But I use voice dictation software most of the time. And what happened was is it really ruined a lot of relationships for me. And this is where, again, I'm confident in all areas of my life except for worth. What would happen was, is I with friendships, here's how it manifested, I was too embarrassed to tell anybody.
Elle:
So, I would stay on the peripheral outer edges of groups because I thought if they ask me too much about my life, they're going to eventually ask how I make my money, how I have all this free time, I'm going to have to tell them the disability story. They might question it. They might not believe it, whatever. I just wasn't willing to face that shame and embarrassment, so no woulda, coulda, shoulda, but I'm here to tell everyone now if you've got any shame, it has to be dealt with. Now, you don't have to do a Facebook live or do a speech at Paleo f(x). You don't even have to tell anybody.
Elle:
Some stuff is better left unsaid, but you've got to go deal with it to the point where you get to be at the point where you had no shame about your shame. And I don't care if you have to talk to a therapist, or a life coach or a family member, whatever it is, it's got to get worked out because it's going to affect you in ways you would not have guessed. And so, I thought I could hide this thing over here, all these years. In fact, I didn't even tell Mark Sisson until about four years into the seven years I've worked for him. Again, such shame about it, I just couldn't even admit it.
Elle:
You know? And then finally I told him, it was wonderful. You've met Mark, he's the most loving person in the whole world, and he was so sweet about it. I also could not tell the story that I'm telling you without bawling, crying hysterically. I could barely get through this conversation before. Now, I don't have any shame. I clearly wrote a chapter in a book, but the way it manifested, which was really the hard-hit was romantic relationships. So, I told you about how I felt when I was younger, and this happened to me. And then as I went through relationships, I would hide it from guys. I would wait to be like, "Well, let me see if they say I love you first or let me gauge this because I don't want to tell anyone and get rejected or have them think less than me."
Elle:
But then you have this fricking secret, right? That you're hiding and that's not going to manifest good outcomes. It just isn't. And so, it really came to a head about six years ago, I was in a relationship with a man who I really thought I was going to marry. And to this day have nothing bad to say about him. We never even got in an argument. He's a wonderful human being. But what I noticed while I was dating him, I'm like, "He's like an emotional robot." And at first, I thought it was cute. He was very professional or very like a staccato about the way he expressed himself. And he showed me that he loved me, but he could not speak words. There was no verbal intimacy between us. And after a year, and hanging out with kids, and having every holiday together and being intensely connected, I started to get that choked up feeling in my throat. So, in hindsight, when I got the thyroid problem many years ago. And I knew something was wrong, I was like, "Hey, I'm not speaking up."
Elle:
I still didn't tell him, but we ended up breaking up. And I remember calling my life coach hysterically crying because it wasn't my choice to break up. I said, "This seems like a really cruel joke from the universe. Here I find this perfect guy and like the only thing wrong with him happens to be a big thing. I can't go through my life going to bed at night not hearing an I love you, or any words of appreciation and that emotional intimacy connection" Right?
Elle:
That's really what we seek. And so, I'm crying to him and I'm like, "This feels like a cruel joke." And he said something to me that kicked my butt, and it was so true and it was so harsh. He said, "Elle, the universe doesn't play a cruel joke on people. So, did you tell him about your disability?" And I said, "No I didn't." He said, "Well, then I guess you're the emotional robot then aren't you?" You weren't emotionally available, you didn't offer that. What did you expect to get in return? And that was it for me, Anna, because I was so devastated by that breakup. I mean, I think I cried three times a day for two years afterward.
Elle:
I mean, I was such a mess over it. I thought, "That's it. This has really screwed my life up enough. I got to stop hiding this. This cannot be, and anyone who loves me is going to accept me for this anyway, so I have to just come out with it." And so, I started to do a little work. I called a few friends that were very open with me about their life that I had not shared this with. I felt a little bad about it because it felt like a one-sided relationship. And so, I called a few friends and again, bawling, crying, telling the story, I couldn't even get through it. They were all lovely and wonderful and it brought us closer because vulnerability really is the name of the game.
Elle:
And side note, but I would argue that the most confident as F people are okay with vulnerability because it is the ultimate in not caring about what other people's opinions are of you. Then I finally got to the point, and this is really wonderful. I don't know if you've spoken with Karen Martell, but she's a fellow podcaster and a health coach. And we were talking one day a couple of years ago, and she said, "Elle, like you, do all these things. I know you make a bunch of different money in all these places, but like what's your main stable source of income?" Now, this was a question that I would dance around for 20 years because this was the conversation about my disability.
Elle:
And in that moment I thought, "All right, I have a choice to continue this charade of shame, or I can just test this out here because I want a relationship, and I am not going to get the one I want unless I overcome this." And so, I told her the story and astoundingly, not surprisingly, if I didn't get the biggest gift from the universe to tell me I was on the right track, Karen said, "Well, Oh my God. Elle, that's what happened to me. I have a hand disability because I was a bodyworker as a Rolfer for 15 years, and I ruined my hands. And now that's why I'm a podcaster and a health coach." And she said, "The funny thing is I always wanted to be a health coach, but I thought it was unrealistic."
Elle:
But the universe cut the golden handcuffs off her wrist to force her into it. Now, cut to when I was a kid, I always wanted to be an actor, a performer in the entertainment industry, a public speaker, or anything like that. But I thought too that it was stupid and ridiculous. So, I was like, "I'm going to go to law school, make a ton of money." While I was applying to law school, I got that job where I started to make more than a starting attorney. And I thought, "All right, screw it." So, the golden handcuffs were also cut off of me, and now I am literally living my dreams, and pursuing what I had once dreamt about as a kid, even more than I could have imagined because I never thought about being a writer then.
Elle:
And so, this was interesting. And then two weeks after talking to Karen, it happened again, Anna, and you're not going to believe this one. I interview a woman Jazlyn Moyet. M-O-Y-E-T, on the Primal Blueprint podcast, and someone said, "You should interview her. She has a really interesting health story." And I didn't know what it was, but I thought I'd find out on the podcast, and as we're talking, I had to put the microphone on mute, and I started bawling my eyes out because Jazlyn said she had a freak accident that led to severing almost every tendon, and nerve leading to her left hand. And after she woke up after eight hours of emergency surgery, and she couldn't feel her left hand, one of her first thoughts, horrible thoughts of shame. Instantly she thought, "Am I ever going to feel a man put a ring on my finger?"
Elle:
And I lost it. Within a couple of weeks of coming out about my shame, I meet two women with an unseen hand disability that's permanent. Come on. You can't even write that. You know what I mean? And I lost it because I knew then that I was on the right path. I knew I was on the right path. And not only that, I met two women that really understand what it's like to be different. Now, everyone can see, I can use my hands, I can play a game of ping pong with you [inaudible 00:24:16] arms, but I still have to gauge how and how much I use my arms. I'm not going to wash dishes for you. I'm not going to help you move. You won't see me watching TV like this because that's pressure on my wrist, my body naturally knows it now after 20 years and moves it.
Elle:
And I work out and keep myself healthy, which is all a part of this. In fact, when I am in moments where I haven't worked out for a while, which is rare, that's when I have more flare-ups. But it's still sometimes hard to go in every couple of years for a random cortisone shot and Jazlyn and Karen understand this because it's like when you go in for that, it almost seals it in more, like you try to put it out of your mind that you have this disability, and then you have a flare-up. You need a shot, and then it becomes real again. And clearly I've healed so much from it just over the course of dealing with the shame of it. But shame is no joke.
Elle:
And it doesn't matter whether you hit a person drunk driving 10 years ago and killed them, and you're feeling guilt and shame. It doesn't matter if you were molested as a child, and you're feeling shame or you have a really ugly mole on your back, you're embarrassed about, I don't care how little people think it might be or how much is discounted by others. Like, "Oh, don't worry, who cares? No one cares." I care because it's important. You have to deal with the shame. And after that speech at Paleo f(x) last year, a girl came up to me and she was crying. She's like 26 years old. And she said, "I'm 26 and I got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis when I was 19."
Elle:
And she said, "And none of my friends understand, they're all partying, enjoying the time of their life, and here I am, and I've got all these issues." And they couldn't see them. They couldn't see her rheumatoid arthritis and again, an unseen disability. And she said, "I didn't even know who you were. And I didn't even know what the speech was about. I just sat down because I thought, "Oh, I'll just see what this speaker's going to talk about."
Elle:
And with tears in her eyes, she said, "I thought that I had dealt with this, but I realize that I need to do more work." And that's why I'm coming out to talk about it, because it really disables confidence in some areas of your life. It's going to disable your confidence, and confidence is everything. Again, meaning inside, out, self-esteem, courage, all-encompassing. When I say confident as F, you know what I mean?
Elle:
And so, here I am highly confident. Most people didn't know. I mean, almost everyone I talked to or interview were like, "I had no idea." And I'm like, "Yeah, because I designed it that way because I was hiding it for so many years." And it is so freeing, and I'm proud of myself. But again, it's not about even going out and talking to inspire others. You got to deal within the inside, with a therapist, with a coach, with someone. I don't care if it's a support group, you've got to deal with it because it will affect your life in a way you would not have foreseen, and nothing is separate. And so, that's just the cliff note version of that story. But it's one of the best chapters in the book. And I also never thought Anna, that it would be a success story. When I was 22 and then happened to me, I thought I was F'd for life.
Elle:
I certainly never thought I'd ever talk about it. I never thought I'd write about it, and I never thought it would be seen as inspiring. You know? And this just goes to show you, it's the same with the paleo thyroid solution. I never thought when I suffered for six years with two bouts of hypothyroidism, bawling my eyes out every morning, barely being able to get out of bed and even think, I never thought that that would become a success story and help people at that moment. And so the biggest gifts in life, they come wrapped in ... They do. They do. And so, if you're out there, and you're dealing with some bad stuff, I'm telling you there's some golden nuggets in there. You may not find out about them until later, but you keep persevering, you know?
Elle:
And so, now I'm at the point where I get to use my voice. I mean, this is amazing, and continue to in that foray. So, the reason I wrote Confident as F is because I did notice over time in my life in general, people would come to me for confidence. It doesn't matter if it was a fellow employee who wanted to ask Mark for a raise and they needed to like muster up some confidence there or whether someone was like, "Hey, I need advice on telling my really nasty patronizing boss off."
Elle:
Or it didn't matter what it was. People were always coming to me for this. It was an absolute theme. But what I learned from them is what I talked about earlier. I learned the benefits of vulnerability. I learned the benefits of diplomacy. I learned things from them like I said, that I had pitfalls with and they learn things from me. It wasn't a one-sided teaching relationship. And this book is not acronyms and to-do lists. This is real life mini stories about people I've coached, people I know, my life that after each one you're like, "Okay, I get it. [inaudible 00:29:10] and I know that's a long run, but that was my last piece to becoming confident as F, was dealing with the shame.
Dr. Anna:
I think that's a huge place and that's a really huge place to start too. We think about shame, and forgiveness, and guilt, and the fact that you're saying being authentic about it, being vulnerable with it, and sharing it because through sharing it, you're giving someone else permission to have that freedom, experience that freedom too. It feels icky initially, but now there's that severed core. That's the story, right? It's no longer that emotional connection with you. You're able to feel that liberation and freedom from it versus carrying all that with you all the time.
Elle:
Yeah, it was really heavy, and it's very lonely because when you're crying to friends and family members about it in their efforts to soothe you, they like, "I don't know why you even feel this way. Like you shouldn't be worried about this." But again, that's calling the person ridiculous for feeling that way versus getting to the core crux of what this is. One of the best people I finally talked to about it after years of seeing a hand surgeon, because I get cortisone shots every now and then, after, like 10 or 12 years of seeing the same hand surgeon, I finally broke down in his office a couple of years ago.
Elle:
And he said ... Really, despite what I thought he was probably the best person to talk to. And he obviously has lots of disabled patients, and he was like, "Elle, listen, these feelings are totally natural." He said, "My patients who are in wheelchairs, they know that if they lose their hands they're done, they're done." And that is why I'm so grateful to have them. I'm so grateful I can swim. One of the reasons I got into swimming despite how horrible chlorine is, I get it. But one of the reasons I got into swimming was when I was first injured and I couldn't even walk with my hands, and your arms move naturally. That was even too much.
Elle:
I couldn't do anything. My friend suggested, she was a swimmer and she said, "I'm at the pool and all these old guys with soldier surgery use a snorkel, and masks to swim for their necks. And maybe you can get a snorkel and mask and you can just like lay your arms, be dead weight in the pool and kick around so that you can get some exercise." And I did. And then eventually as I got out of work, didn't have to use my hands repetitively. Went through a year of healing, and was able to rest my hands, and finally, use them again in a normal way. I started to actually swim with my arms." And now I am a regular swimmer. I don't swim every day, but I swim a couple of days a week, and it's been an incredible joy in my life, and healthy for me, but also really great for my arms. And so, it's really interesting.
Elle:
And I also understand too modifications because I can't do pushups and things like that. Those are not appropriate for me and I have a certain amount of weight that I can or can't lift based on some flare-ups. So, I do still use modifications and all of that. But in general, I am pain-free, 99% of the time. And then of course if there's overuse or something random that I get a flare-up. So it's still there but at the end of the day ...
Elle:
And this is what I said in my book, I'm not happy and successful now despite my disability, I am successful and happy now because of it. It was a gift, and I would have that portion, that house, and all of the things I thought I was going to have if I kept going with that company. And I could tell you what right now at my age, like a lot of people my age, kids are off to college or they're approaching that, and they're going, "What am I doing with my life? What's my purpose?"
Elle:
I was thrown into my purpose, and I'm so grateful for it. So, while they have like heavy savings and 401ks, and they may have the mortgages, and all the things that I wasn't able to do with 45 grand a year for all those years, it's okay because I am so fulfilled in my life and honestly I'd rather have that. I mean, granted, I'm now definitely successful financially, and able to move beyond that set amount that I got because of all the things that I have done over the years. But I would rather have this, I really would.
Elle:
So, you never know what's going to throw you into the purpose or some avenue that's going to lead you somewhere, you never thought you could go. When I was hypothyroid and so bloated and fat, I was pursuing acting as a leading lady. And I was going off for all these great, wonderful series, regular roles, and things like that. When I got fat and bloated and all the horrible symptoms that happened with hypothyroidism, I remember then going, "Oh my God, well I can't be the leading lady now because I know what that entails."
Elle:
So, I literally had this thought. I was like, "Well, I'll go back into comedy because maybe I'll get hired as like the fat funny friend." And went into comedy, and that turned me into a writer. It turned me into a writer. I wrote sketches all the time. I've written over 100 comedy sketches, just like you see on SNL. We did live shows. After a while, I was like, "Wait a minute, I've done all these really funny sketches. [inaudible 00:34:09]." And then now I have an award-winning documentary out there and two books, which I never would have thought. So, one disability-led me to a life dream, and the first disability-led me to having the time to not work to solve the thyroid disability.
Elle:
They both were hand in hand, in the ultimate direction of both of my dreams. And I could have never predicted or chosen this, and I wouldn't have chosen it any other way because the way it's ended up is so serendipitous and perfect. And that's another message too. The unknown possibilities are where it's at. It really is.
Dr. Anna:
I think it's beautiful. And thank you for sharing it with us Elle. I mean, your story is really impactful, and I hear the courage, it's like, "Okay, well I can't go this way. Let me go this way." There's not that stop, and dead-end for you. You really continue to navigate the best way and staying in tune for what is your purpose. And there's so much of a huge message there for each and every one of us to listen to. In your book, Confident as F, you talk about, many principles to help encourage this confidence. And I love how you give anecdotes, and stories along the way. There are some key principles. What are a couple of those key principles you want to send us home with today?
Elle:
Let's start with a couple, confident people do not compete. When you compete, you lose. And let me explain that. So, someone might be like, "Well that's ridiculous. If I'm in a sports competition, I'm in it to win it and beat others." No, actually. So, there's two ways of looking at it. You're in sports competition, when I'm in a competition like that, let's say I'm not looking at like, "I can't wait to kick their butts." I'm just looking at like, "I'm going to be number one, I'm going to prevail." My sense of worth and winning is not about you, and your failure. There are two different vibrations going on there. Do you see what I'm saying? One is really like, because someone else is going to haha in your face, and the other is I'm just going to be a winner. Yeah, there's other people, I'm just going to be a winner.
Elle:
So, when you compete, you lose. Confident people don't justify and apologize. How many people are saying sorry for everything that's not their fault? And also someone asks you to do something like, "Hey, you want to go see this movie on Friday with me?" And then you go on a long justification explanation because you feel bad about saying no. We've got to get to the point where we're just okay with saying, "No, thank you, but I appreciate the offer." That's it. No one also wants to hear it on the other side, it's very weak, and bubbling, and it's like just be confirm in yourself. You talk about, well you didn't mention the word, but I mean, I think what you meant was that you didn't see that I was ever a true victim, that I was always trying to move forward.
Elle:
I have a section in there called your victim application has been denied. I met a 50-year-old woman who was sitting there ripping on her mom saying, "Gosh, had she steered me in the right direction or pushed me or motivated me further, I'd be in a better place now." She's trying to justify her lack of success. And I asked her, "How long have you known or realized that perhaps your mother wasn't maybe the best mom? Like you're 50 now. So, when did you go, oh yeah, my mom wasn't so great?" She said, "I don't know, maybe like when I was 30 years old." I go, "So, for the past 20 years, you're blaming your mom? Uh-uh (negative) your victim application has been denied. No." How long are you going to let someone's likely false opinion of you win? Not if I can help it.
Elle:
No, you're not. But most people do. And also we've got stories from the past. We've got parental garbage, we've got stories that happen that we take on that aren't true, that mold our experience and mold what we are attracting. That has to end, we have to clean that stuff up. So, it's about ditching bad vibes like downers and toxic people, and also how to deal with them. And it's also about cleaning up some parental garbage, and things from the past that might be affecting your life. How do you know you might have these things? Because there's a pattern, there's a pattern somewhere. Maybe you keep getting fired from jobs. Okay, well we need to look at that.
Elle:
Maybe this keeps happening in relationships. Like with me, I had to look at that. That was the portion of my life that was not going well when everything else was going great. So, confident people also they are kind, they are sometimes often very silent. And I think it's really important that this is just really a motivator for everybody to get inside and do some self-examination because nobody cares more about you than you. And you know this with health. We talked about this with thyroid, you've got to learn this stuff because no one is going to handhold you through it. Not even a therapist. You go to a therapist, talk for an hour, what are you doing and thinking the rest of the time?
Elle:
So, our thoughts, our tribe around us, the kind of [inaudible 00:39:01] I was like, "Yeah, great. Well but like tell me how to do it or give me more info. Like you're not getting me blood tests, you're not telling me what to do." And I feel the way about all the books on confidence and self-esteem. They're very like theoretical and professorial, and I wanted to break it down and be like, "Let me just break out. These are real-life examples that we have all been through." Everybody would go, "Oh yeah, I know that one." You know what I'm saying? Confident people, also, the last one I would say is they are not jealous. If you are a jealous person, you need this book and you need to turn your life around immediately because when we are jealous of others that is secretly hoping that the other person fails at the thing we're jealous of.
Elle:
That is a horrible vibration to put out. Often the person succeeds beyond and that doesn't fail because it backfires on the person who's jealous. So, jealousy is a sense of, "Well they have this thing that I don't have and there might be a lack of out there." I also talk about women being pro-women. If someone comes to me and they're like, "Hey, I want to be an author and a podcaster like you." I don't feel threatened at all. There's enough room for all of us, and I'm going to help you do what you need to do. We've got to stop engaging in or hanging out with women that are like, the Housewives on TV who are bickering and arguing with each other. I'm willing to be the new spokesperson for women. So, as far as women goes, we need to get pro-women.
Elle:
And if you're hanging out with women who you don't think are encouraging and are lifting you up, and promoting your dreams, and they're always skeptical or naysayers then guess what? They don't want you to succeed, and you get rid of them or you minimize your contact. So, there's so many things in this book that are just real intangible to be able to clean up your life, ditch these vibes, and get on with it because the only thing holding you back from the things that you want are likely speaking up or these other elements we've talked about.
Dr. Anna:
You couldn't say that better. I remember hearing a quote from Oprah and she said one thing about ... And this can probably be translated to victim mentality, but trauma is an explanation. It is not an excuse. Trauma's an explanation. It's not an excuse. So, we can understand, okay, these things happened in our pas, so how are we rewriting our present? So, what is a skill that you've developed and that you recommend and coach on? For those who have been victims, for those of us who have had this trauma of have this written on our souls to be able to release that moving forward, to be confident as fuck.
Elle:
Well, without the details of a specific person. Let's say who's going through whatever. I would say the blanket overall on that is if you really think about it, it's incredibly illogical to allow someone's action towards you in life ... Again, maybe you were raped. That's a horrible traumatic event. Oh my God, it's horrific. I'm not discounting that at all. No, way. Yes, that's disaster. And it doesn't even matter, it could be that severe or it could be something like you had a parent who just told you you were nothing your whole life, and never going to amount to anything. But what you're doing is you are letting that trauma, that person, that event win. You are letting it overpower your life. If you really look at it that way, is that what you want? Do you really want ... Because then they win, they win.
Elle:
And in this primal world, we're still in a meat suit, mm-mm (negative). And that's your thing too, talk about ancestral primal health, we do need to be valued by our tribe. You can be a confident person just because you're a wonderful friend that everyone wants to hang out with. You don't need to have a resume and a bunch of accomplishments. You could be a housewife. This is not about becoming some corporate bad ... But are you really going to allow these people to dictate your life?
Elle:
Then you have let them win, and I am not going to stand by and let people do that. I'm really not. Now, there's details as to how you might work through something very traumatic like that. Clearly you need counseling. You might need sexual therapy to be open again with that traumatic incident. But with something like the mother that told you amounted to nothing, it's like you can choose to be angry at them your whole life, but essentially you're proving them right. You're proving them right on something that wasn't even true. It was projected onto you. And people in this world are going to project their lack of confidence on a thing to you. And it happened with me and I put it in the book.
Elle:
And then later after I wrote the book, I showed it to the person. And this was the example, when I was about to pitch Mark Sisson the Paleo Thyroid Solution for him to publish. I went to a family member and I was like, "I'm so excited. I'm going to pitch my book to Mark." And this was their response, "But you've never written a book before." Oof. Okay. That's the first hit. All right. Pretty crappy. It's like saying, "Hmm, I don't know, can you really do it?" So, then I pitched the book to Mark and he says, "Great, we'd love to publish it." I go back to the family member. They said, "Well [inaudible 00:43:58]." Like what? Again, don't believe you can do it. Hitting at my confidence. This is a person who loves me, who's normally encouraging me. This is not a bad person.
Elle:
So, this can come from even people we love. This is just standard skeptic junk. And then the third one was Barnes & Noble bought 1,000 copies of the book before we even published it, probably before they even had a copy to read. And I told the family member that and they go, "Well that's silly. Why would Barnes & Noble take a risk like that and buy your book without even reading it?" So, now they've relegated me to where I failed, I'm going to be an embarrassment. And then during the writing of my book, besides my family member, I had a friend who loves me, is encouraging of me. But again, anybody can be a downer. And came to me, called me one day, like checking in on me like a parent would when their kid's school homework is due and it's midnight. And they called me and they're like, "What are you doing? Are you writing? How far are you?" Dah, dah, dah, dah.
Elle:
And I said, "Dude, enough, don't project your lack of confidence on me just because you've never written a book. I've never not finished something I haven't started. You've known me for 30 something years. I definitely don't need you to be a downer." That was the end of that conversation and that's why it's good also to have confident as F friends because you can do a mic drop like that, and it's a two-second ... We've never gotten into a fight. It was just a moment. That's it. Now, I did bring the book to the family member and I go, "That is you. You are this downer right here."
Elle:
They read through it and they were like, "Oh my God, I didn't mean it that way but I can see ... " I go, "Can you see how rude that was? So, I'm down with other people's confidence so should you let people fail unless you want yours champed on. Enough is enough." And that's where the downers come in and I've got like the downer effect series in that book, which is like nine downers that goes through these types of things. I've been a downer. We all have been, but usually, it's when people are rolling their eyes. I have a twist on an old quote, but my version is no one ever built a statue to a skeptic. Okay? You've never seen a statue, a national monument anywhere with a pull card said, "This guy questioned everything that ever ... "
Elle:
We build statues to people that believe in the impossible, that believed in something that we all didn't think could happen, and they made it happen. That's who we erect monuments and statues too usually. You know what I mean? Not skeptics. So, the world is skeptical. You are going to say, "I want to start a new business, and some friend is going to go, ooh, I don't know. I just read in business week that 50% of new businesses fail." "Well, you know what? F you, how about I'm going to be on the 50% of the side of the businesses that succeed?" I have a choice. Yeah. And I heard the same thing when I told someone I was a writer once. This was their first response. Literally verbatim. They said, "So, are you a writer that like makes money at it or do you just like work at Starbucks, and write there but do something else?"
Elle:
And I said, "Whoa." I said, "That is really rude. Would you ask a real estate agent, hey, do you have your license but you don't sell houses, and you just live at home?" And they go, "Well, no, it's different. I mean ... " I go, "No, it's not different. It's not different." I also had someone say to me when I told them I was a writer and they go, "Ooh, that's a tough competitive industry." And I said, "Not for all of the people succeeding at it is it? Is it? Right?" So, which way are you going to go? You're going to be on the side of the people that succeed at it or not. You know? And so again, it's just how you look at things, but it's going to come at you from every angle.
Elle:
And that's why you need the book. That's why you need to do this work so that you can be aware. It's going to come at you from strangers. It's going to come at you from loved ones even though they are well-meaning. And are you going to let that chip away at your dreams and prevent you from pursuing stuff you love? Or are you going to be like, "No." Because to me it's not about proving them wrong. It's about proving yourself, awesome.
Dr. Anna:
No, I love that. And I think it's such an eye-opener to read the downers and to say, "Oh my gosh, well I just did that." Or, "Okay, that's an awareness check-in." Right? And especially, as a mom to kids. Yeah, man. How am I encouraging their dreams, and how am I inspiring their dreams? And I think it's really, really cool. We were just, Elle, funny story, we were at just in Washington D.C. my younger brother John, he's 11 months younger than me, so we grew up like twins. Well, he just was sworn into the US Foreign Commercial Service as the intellectual property liaison or ambassador, attache actually, to all of South Asia. So, he is the only non-attorney to ever hold his position that he's been in with the US PTO as director in Silicon Valley for the US PTO, the only non-attorney to do that.
Dr. Anna:
And one thing that he got asked all the time, we had this conversation, he said, people would always ask him, "Well, how did you get to this position?" And he said, "It's really simple. If there was something to be done, I did it." It's like I didn't question my degree or my field of specialty I just did it." Right? And that's like, I didn't need that qualification, was able to surpass that recommended qualification. But on the way home from his swearing, and that was a side story. We have the opportunity ... We got into a fender bender and so our car ended up having to be towed away, and we have a rental car on the way home. So, really he was proud, I was there in the car with three of my daughters, and made the best of the entire situation.
Dr. Anna:
"Okay, we're in North Carolina, let's stop and get Smithfield chicken right? Or Smithfield barbecue." And I get this rental car and head home. My kids were good about it, a little bit shaken from the accident, but no one was hurt. And we were all just like, "Okay, move on. We can do this." But on the way home we just started talking, "What would your vision board look like? Like what does your vision board look like? And what are your dreams around it?" And I had made this mental check to myself because Sheri Salata had brought this up in one of her talks or podcast was just do the vision work. Don't think about how right?
Dr. Anna:
Don't limit yourself on the how, don't think, how am I going to get there? Right? Because I think about that with my brother. If he said, "Well, you have to be an attorney to be qualified for this position." Well, now he's [crosstalk 00:50:24]-
Elle:
He would have never made it because he would have had that limiting belief and you would've been like, "Well, who goes ... " I had someone recently say to me something, they were like, "Well, I'd love to write a book someday, but it's really hard to get an agent, and then the agent has to pitch you to a publisher." And I was like, record scratch. I was like, "Hi, have you met me? I went directly to my publisher, and did not have to get an agent." So, your story about limitation is untrue in my life, and it's untrue for probably a lot of other people as well.
Elle:
It's interesting you said the how, when talking about the law of attraction, quantum physics, the science of mind, power, subconscious, mind intention, any of that stuff. And I would push anybody that if you're looking for the science behind these seemingly hippy-dippy principles, the best book on that is by Lynne McTaggart called the Intention Experiment. She goes through all of the scientific experiments that actually warrant that mental intention does affect matter, does affect our lives. The Cursed House is what Mike Dooley, another great speaker on this topic talks about. When you are in the how of something, you are limiting the otherwise unknown possibilities to come in. It has to be this way. I have to do it this way. This is your directory. There might be another way. There has been for many people, it's not to say you don't take inspired action that's different from the how, but a lot of people are like five steps ahead.
Elle:
They're like, "I want to do this. So, then I got to do that. Then I got to do that, and then I'll probably do that. And you know what? You're going to end up again. It's like Cod laughs at your plans. It's going to laugh at your plans. It actually might even happen faster than you think it could. It might happen in a better, more serendipitous way than you could have planned how it was going to happen. In every area of my life, it has been true when I have tried to plan that. It has happened in ways that I could have not foreseen, and that's the co-creation, right?
Elle:
So, this cursed house, again, people are very ... It's a limiting belief. It's just on a one track. You can still do that. Like, yes, if you want to be a partner of a law firm, okay, well, yeah, you're going to have to get a law degree. You'd have to do some things. Have to get a job with a law firm. Okay. I get that. There are benchmarks, and things in certain industries that are calculatable, but at the end of the day, you don't have to worry. If you want to be something right now, you just start somewhere. If you want to be a singer, watch a YouTube music lesson, take a class, sing karaoke. Just start somewhere.
Elle:
But in not starting somewhere and thinking like, "Oh my God, there's this whole laundry list that I have to complete to get there, and I don't know how I'm going to do it." That's going to hold you back. You're never going to get there. And I firmly believe in that. And I practice that on a regular basis. And it's funny, it happened to me recently. I was thinking about a career thing that I really wanted. I had no resistance to it, but I knew some people in that arena that I thought, "You know what?" I'm going to contact them and rack their brain about it. And I had no resistance. I was just like, "Okay when I see them, I'll bring it up." Sure enough without even ever bringing it up. I got an email asking me, basically offering me that same thing I've been thinking about.
Elle:
Usually, when we're like, "I've got to, I've got to do that." That's resistance. And so if you let go and just go, "You know what? Unseen possibilities." Joe Dispenza is a great writer on this topic and anyone who writes about the power of the subconscious mind or law of attraction, for those of you out there wanting to understand how to change your mind to the forward-thinking and unknown possibilities. Because I guarantee [inaudible 00:53:49] had something in their life when it was or what it was. And I guarantee you, if you look back, the strange series of events that led to that happening were things you could not have even written yourself that happened even better than you could have designed it.
Elle:
And so, that's why we have to leave a lot of room open. I always say that, and I said in my speech last year of Paleo f(x), that the best stuff is in the unknown. It's just the fear of the unknown. But we have to learn to embrace it. It's not fearful to me anymore. It's exciting. It's like what magic and stuff I don't even know can come in?
Dr. Anna:
I love it. I love it. You bring to light one of my favorite quotes, it's, "She believes she could. So, she did." Right? I have it on a coffee mug. I have it on my wall. She believes she could. So, she did. It's not just a belief, it's belief with action. It's not just faith, it's the faith with action. Right? And just keeping that limitless possibility open. So, Elle, I want to thank you for your time today. Tell us where we can get your book, and read about it, and learn more about you, and connect with you more.
Elle:
Well, you can always go to my website, elleruss.com, and I do have a free thyroid guide there with all the tests. And so, if you have a thyroid issue, and that's your thing, you can go there. My book's also on my website, but you can go to amazon.com you can type in F-U-C-K, the full word, the asterisk, it will come up. And it's on Kindle and Paperback. And yeah, just getting a lot of gr ... And another thing too is I've had some people who've bought it for like every member of their family.
Elle:
If you know people that are simmering in victimhood, or a negative, or toxic, or just need to gain confidence in an arena, get them the book because I'll tell them if you won't, I'm straight up. I mean, my book you've read, I'm a no-BS person. Everyone listening to me can understand that, and some of my books got a little harsh. There's some harsh deliveries in there for a reason. Tough love is an applicable place. So, if you really need to like kick a friend's butt or something this is a good book for them too.
Dr. Anna:
I love it. All right. Confident as Fu*k, and you find at elleruss.com, Amazon anywhere where books are sold. So, I'm excited about this book, and I know I'm going to have my daughter's reading it too. I'm looking forward to going through it in more detail and I thank you for this. Thanks for being so vulnerable, and open, and authentic, and printing this out, overall.
Elle:
Thank you for letting me share my work on your podcast a second time, and look forward to interviewing you soon about your new book. So ...
Dr. Anna:
Oh, I can't wait to share it with you. I want to thank each and every one of you in our audience today for being part of the conversation. And with that I want you to go ahead and comment below, comment below this if you're listening to this on my website or you can go ahead and comment at dranna.com. Go to the Couch Talk, our podcast page, and just put your comments, questions, what this has brought up in you. And I'm sure you've got some great pearls from this conversation and this probably brought up some great stories, and I read each and every one of them.
Dr. Anna:
So, I encourage you to share with me what you're thinking, and please review our talk. I love each and every one of the reviews, I read them, and I see this growing sisterhood. It is a growing community of open, authentic, and really positive people too. And some people are like, "Elle is talking about, dealing with some hard ... " And coming here for help. And I want to be able to continue to address your questions, your concerns, and help you along in this journey because you're not around, none of us are alone. And I'm excited to be here with you.
Dr. Anna:
So, really enjoyed our guest today, Elle Russ. I've had her on before. I love her. We'll be at Paleo f(x) at the end of April. I encourage you to join us. I have information, and my email is coming out, so I'm sure you're on my email list, but double-check and make sure you'll see our Sunday emails with upcoming events, and how to get tickets, and more information on that. But it is a fabulous event with fabulous people. Again, thank you for being with us on Couch Talk, and I will see you next week.
